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	<title>Comments on: Does journalism have a class bias?&#8230;</title>
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		<title>By: Sisyphus</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3300</link>
		<dc:creator>Sisyphus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think that rhetoric is changing, and journalism must change with it.&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;a href=&quot;http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2005/01/04/lex_report.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Open Source Journalism Comes a Step Closer in Greensboro: A Plan is Shown&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I think that rhetoric is changing, and journalism must change with it.</i></p>
<p><a href="http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2005/01/04/lex_report.html" rel="nofollow">Open Source Journalism Comes a Step Closer in Greensboro: A Plan is Shown</a></p>
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		<title>By: acline</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3299</link>
		<dc:creator>acline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Dec 2004 06:40:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jay... I don&#039;t think &quot;class&quot; and &quot;subculture&quot; are exclusive here. Plus, in the American context, class has rarely been unmixed strata. Movement among them has nearly always been possible. I think the internet is mixing strata in exactly the way Ehrenreich believes can&#039;t happen.

Re: &quot;Again, all subcultures have such traits, but in journalism they&#039;re more obvious, not to say more painful, because journalists are trying to describe reality to the rest of us. If most of the rest of us don&#039;t identify with journalists, we won&#039;t believe them.&quot;

Yes. This is exactly the problem with the conduit rhetoric of modern journalism. I think that rhetoric is changing, and journalism must change with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay&#8230; I don&#8217;t think &#8220;class&#8221; and &#8220;subculture&#8221; are exclusive here. Plus, in the American context, class has rarely been unmixed strata. Movement among them has nearly always been possible. I think the internet is mixing strata in exactly the way Ehrenreich believes can&#8217;t happen.</p>
<p>Re: &#8220;Again, all subcultures have such traits, but in journalism they&#8217;re more obvious, not to say more painful, because journalists are trying to describe reality to the rest of us. If most of the rest of us don&#8217;t identify with journalists, we won&#8217;t believe them.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes. This is exactly the problem with the conduit rhetoric of modern journalism. I think that rhetoric is changing, and journalism must change with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3298</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2004 11:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;Perhaps journalists should be drafted from the general population by a random lottery. ;^)&lt;/i&gt;

LOL ... &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.apologeticspress.org/inthenews/2003/itn-03-11.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;MONKEYS, TYPEWRITERS, AND SHAKESPEARE&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Perhaps journalists should be drafted from the general population by a random lottery. ;^)</i></p>
<p>LOL &#8230; <a href="http://www.apologeticspress.org/inthenews/2003/itn-03-11.htm" rel="nofollow">MONKEYS, TYPEWRITERS, AND SHAKESPEARE</a></p>
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		<title>By: Jay Manifold</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3297</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Manifold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2004 10:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wpp3/?p=3006#comment-3297</guid>
		<description>Change &quot;class&quot; to &quot;subculture,&quot; and picture society not as layers of unmixed strata (as Ehrenreich seems to) but as a Venn diagram with lots of overlapping circles.

I see journalism as a subculture, which like all others, must be at least somewhat self-reinforcing to survive.  The same tendencies that keep it together, however, both limit its appeal as an occupation to a relatively narrow range of personality types and place constraints on its output that limit its credibility among other subcultures.

Again, all subcultures have such traits, but in journalism they&#039;re more obvious, not to say more painful, because journalists are trying to describe reality to the rest of us.  If most of the rest of us don&#039;t identify with journalists, we won&#039;t believe them.

Perhaps journalists should be drafted from the general population by a random lottery.  ;^)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Change &#8220;class&#8221; to &#8220;subculture,&#8221; and picture society not as layers of unmixed strata (as Ehrenreich seems to) but as a Venn diagram with lots of overlapping circles.</p>
<p>I see journalism as a subculture, which like all others, must be at least somewhat self-reinforcing to survive.  The same tendencies that keep it together, however, both limit its appeal as an occupation to a relatively narrow range of personality types and place constraints on its output that limit its credibility among other subcultures.</p>
<p>Again, all subcultures have such traits, but in journalism they&#8217;re more obvious, not to say more painful, because journalists are trying to describe reality to the rest of us.  If most of the rest of us don&#8217;t identify with journalists, we won&#8217;t believe them.</p>
<p>Perhaps journalists should be drafted from the general population by a random lottery.  ;^)</p>
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		<title>By: acline</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3296</link>
		<dc:creator>acline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Dec 2004 05:41:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Tim... Readers are important--especially good readers who read carefully and think about what they&#039;re reading. Such readers make it easier for me to do my job (on this blog, in the classroom, in academic research, etc.). So I try to cater to the requests of such readers. It&#039;s an interactive world, you know :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim&#8230; Readers are important&#8211;especially good readers who read carefully and think about what they&#8217;re reading. Such readers make it easier for me to do my job (on this blog, in the classroom, in academic research, etc.). So I try to cater to the requests of such readers. It&#8217;s an interactive world, you know <img src='http://rhetorica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3295</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 20:00:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>re: &lt;i&gt;You&#039;ll need to give me a little time to work on this.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, if I was in a position to manage your time, I would gladly, willing, and enthusiastically do so. I&#039;d say something like, &quot;Sure, Andrew, take the time you need to do it right, but don&#039;t let important things like your job or family suffer, and make sure the quality of the product reflects the time spent, blah, blah, and anytime tomorrow will be fine.&quot;

But I&#039;m not, am I?

And yet, you the writer, the publisher, the expert, the giver of free ice cream, have basically put me on notice that I&#039;ll need to be patient about the flavor of ice cream I&#039;m interested in. Or is it an interest we share?

God, I love this blog-thing! More specifically, &lt;i&gt;this&lt;/i&gt; blog.

Anyway, Jay Rosen had an important &lt;a href=&quot;http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/12/26/tptn04_intro.html#comment14865&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;retort&lt;/a&gt;  to power law mentioned above:&lt;blockquote&gt;Here&#039;s the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;long tail &lt;/a&gt;article about the importance of the many smaller blogs that has gotten so much attention and will be turned into a book.  I recommend it if you have not read it yet.  Seth: why so much about the power law, and so little about the long tail?  I don&#039;t find in the recent history of Big Media anything resembling the long tail of the blogging world.  Do you?&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: <i>You&#8217;ll need to give me a little time to work on this.</i></p>
<p>Well, if I was in a position to manage your time, I would gladly, willing, and enthusiastically do so. I&#8217;d say something like, &#8220;Sure, Andrew, take the time you need to do it right, but don&#8217;t let important things like your job or family suffer, and make sure the quality of the product reflects the time spent, blah, blah, and anytime tomorrow will be fine.&#8221;</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m not, am I?</p>
<p>And yet, you the writer, the publisher, the expert, the giver of free ice cream, have basically put me on notice that I&#8217;ll need to be patient about the flavor of ice cream I&#8217;m interested in. Or is it an interest we share?</p>
<p>God, I love this blog-thing! More specifically, <i>this</i> blog.</p>
<p>Anyway, Jay Rosen had an important <a href="http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/12/26/tptn04_intro.html#comment14865" rel="nofollow">retort</a>  to power law mentioned above:<br />
<blockquote>Here&#8217;s the <a href="http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.10/tail.html" rel="nofollow">long tail </a>article about the importance of the many smaller blogs that has gotten so much attention and will be turned into a book.  I recommend it if you have not read it yet.  Seth: why so much about the power law, and so little about the long tail?  I don&#8217;t find in the recent history of Big Media anything resembling the long tail of the blogging world.  Do you?</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: acline</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3294</link>
		<dc:creator>acline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 13:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>R- Good questions re: when does something get done? I suggest you ask a journalist. I am not a journalist. I merely criticize them for a living ;-)

My contribution to change: thinking about this stuff and trying to teach the next generation of reporters how to do a better job based on that thinking. It&#039;s what academics do.

T- You&#039;ll need to give me a little time to work on this.

R- Yes, because Franks is a liberal you should discount 100 percent of what he says. Me too, for that matter. I am a part of the liberal machine! I PRETEND to take an academic and balanced stance to suck the unsuspecting into the liberal web where we will suck the life out of them (i.e. high taxes). Buwhhahahahahahaha! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>R- Good questions re: when does something get done? I suggest you ask a journalist. I am not a journalist. I merely criticize them for a living <img src='http://rhetorica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>My contribution to change: thinking about this stuff and trying to teach the next generation of reporters how to do a better job based on that thinking. It&#8217;s what academics do.</p>
<p>T- You&#8217;ll need to give me a little time to work on this.</p>
<p>R- Yes, because Franks is a liberal you should discount 100 percent of what he says. Me too, for that matter. I am a part of the liberal machine! I PRETEND to take an academic and balanced stance to suck the unsuspecting into the liberal web where we will suck the life out of them (i.e. high taxes). Buwhhahahahahahaha! <img src='http://rhetorica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3293</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:58:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>re: the other discussion

When you do, it would be great to elicit comments from &lt;a href=&quot;http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/000701.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Seth Finkelstein&lt;/a&gt; and &lt;a href=&quot;http://ncfocus.blogspot.com/2004/11/left-and-right.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anna&lt;/a&gt; if possible. Just as  &quot;new&quot; is &quot;destroying&quot; the (conduit metaphor of) legacy - the &quot;new&quot; mimics the legacy.

I would be interested in the relationship with Seth&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/12/26/tptn04_intro.html#comment14863&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;insights&lt;/a&gt; on &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;power law&lt;/a&gt; (Utility sorters and resource shifters) and &lt;a href=&quot;http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/10/08/cs_respond.html#comment10475&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Anna&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; (conformity enforcers and diversity enhancers) in discussing &quot;new&#039;s&quot; &lt;a href=&quot;http://rhetorica.net/archives/003003.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Global Brain&lt;/a&gt; (BlogThink) and legacy&#039;s (PressThink or MediaThink?).&lt;blockquote&gt;The enabling technologies of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.blaserco.com/blogs/2003/02/23.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Obvious Society&lt;/a&gt;, while intriguing, are irrelevant. What&#039;s critical is that it promises to free us from the smoke we blow up each others&#039; asses and, with a little bit of luck, make &quot;isms&quot; obsolete. (link added)&lt;/blockquote&gt;R - &lt;i&gt;In other words, when does thinking become doing?&lt;/i&gt;

I wonder if it is not a combination of entreprenuerial risk based on &quot;think&quot; that &quot;does&quot; and consumerism that rewards (or not)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>re: the other discussion</p>
<p>When you do, it would be great to elicit comments from <a href="http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/000701.html" rel="nofollow">Seth Finkelstein</a> and <a href="http://ncfocus.blogspot.com/2004/11/left-and-right.html" rel="nofollow">Anna</a> if possible. Just as  &#8220;new&#8221; is &#8220;destroying&#8221; the (conduit metaphor of) legacy &#8211; the &#8220;new&#8221; mimics the legacy.</p>
<p>I would be interested in the relationship with Seth&#8217;s <a href="http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/12/26/tptn04_intro.html#comment14863" rel="nofollow">insights</a> on <a href="http://www.shirky.com/writings/powerlaw_weblog.html" rel="nofollow">power law</a> (Utility sorters and resource shifters) and <a href="http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2004/10/08/cs_respond.html#comment10475" rel="nofollow">Anna&#8217;s</a> (conformity enforcers and diversity enhancers) in discussing &#8220;new&#8217;s&#8221; <a href="http://rhetorica.net/archives/003003.html" rel="nofollow">Global Brain</a> (BlogThink) and legacy&#8217;s (PressThink or MediaThink?).<br />
<blockquote>The enabling technologies of the <a href="http://www.blaserco.com/blogs/2003/02/23.html" rel="nofollow">Obvious Society</a>, while intriguing, are irrelevant. What&#8217;s critical is that it promises to free us from the smoke we blow up each others&#8217; asses and, with a little bit of luck, make &#8220;isms&#8221; obsolete. (link added)</p></blockquote>
<p>R &#8211; <i>In other words, when does thinking become doing?</i></p>
<p>I wonder if it is not a combination of entreprenuerial risk based on &#8220;think&#8221; that &#8220;does&#8221; and consumerism that rewards (or not)?</p>
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		<title>By: rgrafton</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3292</link>
		<dc:creator>rgrafton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Furthermore, I am looking forward to Thomas Franks&#039; new book &quot; What&#039;s the Matter with Manhattan (NY not KS) - Why Liberals Vote Against Their Interests and Why Rich People Love High Taxes. HEE! HEE!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Furthermore, I am looking forward to Thomas Franks&#8217; new book &#8221; What&#8217;s the Matter with Manhattan (NY not KS) &#8211; Why Liberals Vote Against Their Interests and Why Rich People Love High Taxes. HEE! HEE!</p>
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		<title>By: rgrafton</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/3006.html/comment-page-1#comment-3291</link>
		<dc:creator>rgrafton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Dec 2004 10:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>At what point should non-academic news consumers say &quot;so what?&quot; to the bias rationalizations? At what point does it become immaterial whether the bad reporting is caused by narrative bias, regional bias, class bias or bias against left handed crippled Catholic dwarves? From what I can tell, only 30-some% of the public believes the press tells the truth. Should the press spring into action when it reaches 20%, 10%, or when donkey&#039;s fly? It&#039;s nice, and a luxury, to just be able to &quot;think&quot; about things, but at what point does it become useless, and just another intellectual exercise? Will the fact that the press may have a &quot;class bias&quot;(if proven) change anything? Doc, I know it&#039;s your job to think about things,(and you do it very well ;-) but when does the press move beyond the abstract into the concrete? In other words, when does thinking become doing?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At what point should non-academic news consumers say &#8220;so what?&#8221; to the bias rationalizations? At what point does it become immaterial whether the bad reporting is caused by narrative bias, regional bias, class bias or bias against left handed crippled Catholic dwarves? From what I can tell, only 30-some% of the public believes the press tells the truth. Should the press spring into action when it reaches 20%, 10%, or when donkey&#8217;s fly? It&#8217;s nice, and a luxury, to just be able to &#8220;think&#8221; about things, but at what point does it become useless, and just another intellectual exercise? Will the fact that the press may have a &#8220;class bias&#8221;(if proven) change anything? Doc, I know it&#8217;s your job to think about things,(and you do it very well <img src='http://rhetorica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  but when does the press move beyond the abstract into the concrete? In other words, when does thinking become doing?</p>
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