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	<title>Comments on: Osama&#8217;s victory&#8230;</title>
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	<item>
		<title>By: acline</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2608</link>
		<dc:creator>acline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2004 13:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>MWS... I wish I had said that as part of the original post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MWS&#8230; I wish I had said that as part of the original post.</p>
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		<title>By: MWS</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2607</link>
		<dc:creator>MWS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:53:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think that much of the demonization comes from each side feeling that it is beseiged.  Conservatives, despite controlling the government, think that they are beseiged by a liberal media and cultural establishment.  Liberals think they are beseigned by &quot;a vast right-wing conspiracy&quot; consisting of the religious right and corporations.  The feeling of victimization is enhanced by the fact that, on some visceral cultural(abortion, homosexuality)and foreign policy issues, the differences are so great that each election is perceived as high stakes. If you read blogs and periodicals from both sides, its amazing how much mirror imaging exists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that much of the demonization comes from each side feeling that it is beseiged.  Conservatives, despite controlling the government, think that they are beseiged by a liberal media and cultural establishment.  Liberals think they are beseigned by &#8220;a vast right-wing conspiracy&#8221; consisting of the religious right and corporations.  The feeling of victimization is enhanced by the fact that, on some visceral cultural(abortion, homosexuality)and foreign policy issues, the differences are so great that each election is perceived as high stakes. If you read blogs and periodicals from both sides, its amazing how much mirror imaging exists.</p>
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		<title>By: bryan`</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2606</link>
		<dc:creator>bryan`</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Sep 2004 06:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;That said, I think I can at the very least make a case that the two sides delegitimize in different ways and that the right is &quot;better&quot; at it.&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;ll grant that they use different arguments to delegitimize, and the right has an advantage in the territory they stake out.

I await your post with baited breath. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That said, I think I can at the very least make a case that the two sides delegitimize in different ways and that the right is &#8220;better&#8221; at it.</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll grant that they use different arguments to delegitimize, and the right has an advantage in the territory they stake out.</p>
<p>I await your post with baited breath. <img src='http://rhetorica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: acline</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2605</link>
		<dc:creator>acline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 14:02:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Bryan... well, I stepped into that one, didn&#039;t I? :-)

I have no short answer, so perhaps I need to work up a blog entry on it. I&#039;ve long been among the &quot;about even&quot; crowd, too, so I admit that what I&#039;m *feeling* right may be getting the better of what I&#039;m *thinking.*

That said, I think I can at the very least make a case that the two sides delegitimize in different ways and that the right is &quot;better&quot; at it.

Okay...let me work on it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bryan&#8230; well, I stepped into that one, didn&#8217;t I? <img src='http://rhetorica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I have no short answer, so perhaps I need to work up a blog entry on it. I&#8217;ve long been among the &#8220;about even&#8221; crowd, too, so I admit that what I&#8217;m *feeling* right may be getting the better of what I&#8217;m *thinking.*</p>
<p>That said, I think I can at the very least make a case that the two sides delegitimize in different ways and that the right is &#8220;better&#8221; at it.</p>
<p>Okay&#8230;let me work on it.</p>
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		<title>By: bryan`</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2604</link>
		<dc:creator>bryan`</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 12:02:10 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;I detect in some of the post-9/11 discourse--mostly from the right but also from the left--increasing attempts to delegitimize the opposition.&lt;/i&gt;
Why do you think it&#039;s &quot;mostly from the right&quot;? Honestly, I think it&#039;s about even. Take a stroll through Democratic Underground or Indymedia sometime to get a flavor of what kind of delegitimizing goes on with left-wing types.

Basically, the two arguments go like this:

If you&#039;re right and they&#039;re left: They&#039;re immoral, un-patriotic big-gov. conspiracy theorists bent on taking away your guns.

If you&#039;re left and they&#039;re right: They&#039;re extremist zealots who hide behind the flag to invade your bedroom and taking away your civil rights.

Pretty well sums it up right there. FWIW, I find there are reasonable people I can converse with who differ with me politically - as long as we can agree that there&#039;s a common ground to discuss. If I&#039;m a simpleton who&#039;s been hoodwinked for disagreeing with someone (which seems to be the dominant belief among some liberal authors e.g. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805073396/qid=1095109214/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ksr_1/103-9551776-1734237?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846 ), then there&#039;s not much to discuss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I detect in some of the post-9/11 discourse&#8211;mostly from the right but also from the left&#8211;increasing attempts to delegitimize the opposition.</i><br />
Why do you think it&#8217;s &#8220;mostly from the right&#8221;? Honestly, I think it&#8217;s about even. Take a stroll through Democratic Underground or Indymedia sometime to get a flavor of what kind of delegitimizing goes on with left-wing types.</p>
<p>Basically, the two arguments go like this:</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re right and they&#8217;re left: They&#8217;re immoral, un-patriotic big-gov. conspiracy theorists bent on taking away your guns.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;re left and they&#8217;re right: They&#8217;re extremist zealots who hide behind the flag to invade your bedroom and taking away your civil rights.</p>
<p>Pretty well sums it up right there. FWIW, I find there are reasonable people I can converse with who differ with me politically &#8211; as long as we can agree that there&#8217;s a common ground to discuss. If I&#8217;m a simpleton who&#8217;s been hoodwinked for disagreeing with someone (which seems to be the dominant belief among some liberal authors e.g. <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805073396/qid=1095109214/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ksr_1/103-9551776-1734237?v=glance&#038;s=books&#038;n=507846" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805073396/qid=1095109214/sr=8-1/ref=pd_ksr_1/103-9551776-1734237?v=glance&#038;s=books&#038;n=507846</a> ), then there&#8217;s not much to discuss.</p>
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		<title>By: acline</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2603</link>
		<dc:creator>acline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:55:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Charles...

I detect in some of the post-9/11 discourse--mostly from the right but also from the left--increasing attempts to delegitimize the opposition. This has always been SOP to a certain extent. I think it&#039;s getting worse. I may be wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles&#8230;</p>
<p>I detect in some of the post-9/11 discourse&#8211;mostly from the right but also from the left&#8211;increasing attempts to delegitimize the opposition. This has always been SOP to a certain extent. I think it&#8217;s getting worse. I may be wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: bryan`</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2602</link>
		<dc:creator>bryan`</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 10:40:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The sky is falling! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The sky is falling! <img src='http://rhetorica.net/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Vardibidian</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2601</link>
		<dc:creator>Vardibidian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 09:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hm. With respect to Mr. Knell, who is certainly right that calling one&#039;s political opposition traitorous has a long, forgotten history, I think that your own experiences count for something. If you have felt attacked more now than four years ago, it may well be true.

I have no actual analysis of whether there is or isn&#039;t a major psychological change, or what contributed to it if it exists, but I will say that it seems to me that a major undercurrent of casual political discussion just now is a sense that everything you value is under attack. Whoever &#039;you&#039; are. The right, the left, the middle. The apathetic. Everybody feels that they and their lives are at risk. The institution of marriage is at risk. Freedom of speech is at risk. Our teenagers are at risk of the draft. Our paychecks are at risk from the tax man. Our pensions are at risk from the stockbroker. Our minds are at risk from the &#039;media&#039; who want to brainwash us, or corrupt us, or bankrupt us.

All of this is true, to some extent or other, but by putting that fear at the center of our lives, we react with hostility</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hm. With respect to Mr. Knell, who is certainly right that calling one&#8217;s political opposition traitorous has a long, forgotten history, I think that your own experiences count for something. If you have felt attacked more now than four years ago, it may well be true.</p>
<p>I have no actual analysis of whether there is or isn&#8217;t a major psychological change, or what contributed to it if it exists, but I will say that it seems to me that a major undercurrent of casual political discussion just now is a sense that everything you value is under attack. Whoever &#8216;you&#8217; are. The right, the left, the middle. The apathetic. Everybody feels that they and their lives are at risk. The institution of marriage is at risk. Freedom of speech is at risk. Our teenagers are at risk of the draft. Our paychecks are at risk from the tax man. Our pensions are at risk from the stockbroker. Our minds are at risk from the &#8216;media&#8217; who want to brainwash us, or corrupt us, or bankrupt us.</p>
<p>All of this is true, to some extent or other, but by putting that fear at the center of our lives, we react with hostility</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Knell</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2600</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Knell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Get a grip! Nothing on this score was changed by the events of September 11, 2001. Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan were with us before that day.

Throwing mud at your political adversaries has a long, long tradition in the U.S. For as long as I can remember (back to the late sixties), the left has dominated academia with very few exceptions (Pepperdine University, University of Chicago econ. department). The left has dominated Hollywood to the extent that movies touching on politics and social issues are made. The right has always been a more grass-roots affair, and as the radio people will tell you, no mass medium is better placed to serve a particular audience.

Are the charges you listed hyperbole, over-the-top? Yes. 

Has the left not been equally guilty of hyperbole in its criticism of President Bush, Dick Cheyney, Newt Gingrich and other conservative/Republican public figures?

Were any of them more civil and responsible on September 10, 2001 than today? Not from where I see it.

&quot;What has been is what will be,
   and what has been done is what will be done;
   there is nothing new under the sun.&quot;
Ecclesiastes, Chapter 1, verse 9, King James Version</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get a grip! Nothing on this score was changed by the events of September 11, 2001. Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan were with us before that day.</p>
<p>Throwing mud at your political adversaries has a long, long tradition in the U.S. For as long as I can remember (back to the late sixties), the left has dominated academia with very few exceptions (Pepperdine University, University of Chicago econ. department). The left has dominated Hollywood to the extent that movies touching on politics and social issues are made. The right has always been a more grass-roots affair, and as the radio people will tell you, no mass medium is better placed to serve a particular audience.</p>
<p>Are the charges you listed hyperbole, over-the-top? Yes. </p>
<p>Has the left not been equally guilty of hyperbole in its criticism of President Bush, Dick Cheyney, Newt Gingrich and other conservative/Republican public figures?</p>
<p>Were any of them more civil and responsible on September 10, 2001 than today? Not from where I see it.</p>
<p>&#8220;What has been is what will be,<br />
   and what has been done is what will be done;<br />
   there is nothing new under the sun.&#8221;<br />
Ecclesiastes, Chapter 1, verse 9, King James Version</p>
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		<title>By: Keith Sader</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2543.html/comment-page-1#comment-2599</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith Sader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Sep 2004 07:20:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wpp3/?p=2543#comment-2599</guid>
		<description>Yes, Andy, me too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Andy, me too.</p>
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