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	<title>Comments on: Three cheers for objectivity&#8230;</title>
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		<title>By: Andrew Lace</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2484</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Lace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Nov 2004 23:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks for the link to this page</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the link to this page</p>
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		<title>By: the chutry experiment</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2487</link>
		<dc:creator>the chutry experiment</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Aug 2004 07:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Post&lt;/i&gt; Apologizes For Pre-War Coverage&lt;/strong&gt;

Interesting Washington Post article on their pre-war coverage of U.S. assertions that Iraq had WMD. The article (free registration), by Post reporter Howard Kurtz, acknowledges that the newspaper should have been more assertive in warning readers that ...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>Post Apologizes For Pre-War Coverage</strong></p>
<p>Interesting Washington Post article on their pre-war coverage of U.S. assertions that Iraq had WMD. The article (free registration), by Post reporter Howard Kurtz, acknowledges that the newspaper should have been more assertive in warning readers that &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Vardibidian</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2483</link>
		<dc:creator>Vardibidian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2004 03:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt;I&#039;ll bet dollars to donuts that most people who hang about the web get more and more variety in their news than people who just watch TV news and/or read the morning paper. &lt;/i&gt;-Mark Noonan.
Well, for the last six months, I&#039;ve stopped taking a daily paper, after ten years or more of reading the newspaper every day. I read my news on-line, and I get much less news, and much &lt;i&gt;much&lt;/i&gt; less news that stretches my world view. I am far less likely to read stories I was not already following. I am far more likely to know details about stories of interest to people of my particular political stripe. I&#039;m looking forward to taking a daily newspaper again, and knowing more about the world.

To go back to the main point, though, I&#039;ve always found it odd that objectivity became a focus. As I remember it from high school journalism class, the point of objectivity is to safeguard accuracy, that is, I need to make sure I&#039;m not letting my biases distract me from what is actually happening. The problem of accuracy is far worse now than the problem of bias--the absurd events surrounding this supposed hoax beheading, where so-called reporters couldn&#039;t be bothered to do a lexis/nexis search (much less a web search) on the name of the person involved, to me says that journalists have much more to worry about than political bias.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I&#8217;ll bet dollars to donuts that most people who hang about the web get more and more variety in their news than people who just watch TV news and/or read the morning paper. </i>-Mark Noonan.<br />
Well, for the last six months, I&#8217;ve stopped taking a daily paper, after ten years or more of reading the newspaper every day. I read my news on-line, and I get much less news, and much <i>much</i> less news that stretches my world view. I am far less likely to read stories I was not already following. I am far more likely to know details about stories of interest to people of my particular political stripe. I&#8217;m looking forward to taking a daily newspaper again, and knowing more about the world.</p>
<p>To go back to the main point, though, I&#8217;ve always found it odd that objectivity became a focus. As I remember it from high school journalism class, the point of objectivity is to safeguard accuracy, that is, I need to make sure I&#8217;m not letting my biases distract me from what is actually happening. The problem of accuracy is far worse now than the problem of bias&#8211;the absurd events surrounding this supposed hoax beheading, where so-called reporters couldn&#8217;t be bothered to do a lexis/nexis search (much less a web search) on the name of the person involved, to me says that journalists have much more to worry about than political bias.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. E.</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2482</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. E.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Aug 2004 01:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have been out of professional journalism for a while now, but I do occasionally do stringer work if I happen to be on the scene of something significant (when it isn&#039;t classified).  When I was in the editor&#039;s seat, though, I did take some heat now and then because I let it be known that I valued accuracy over objectivity.

By that, I meant that a story should be laid out as it falls.  If you have to dig too many layers for the other side of the story, then you run into the danger of &lt;i&gt;creating&lt;/i&gt; a side that isn&#039;t really there.  If, for example, someone was covering a lecture by Jesse Jackson, or Jesse Helms, for that matter, and there were protesters outside, then go ahead and get some quotes.  If they weren&#039;t, then digging up opposition where there wasn&#039;t enough to go to the trouble of showing up would actually be skewing the story.

Having said that, I have always felt that market forces were the answer to the question of objectivity.  If there is a bias to one media source, people (being rather less stupid than many would assume) will look to another source that is biased in another direction, and keep doing so until they get enough information to draw a conclusion.  Is it a perfect system for informing the public?  No, but It seems to be about the best we can do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been out of professional journalism for a while now, but I do occasionally do stringer work if I happen to be on the scene of something significant (when it isn&#8217;t classified).  When I was in the editor&#8217;s seat, though, I did take some heat now and then because I let it be known that I valued accuracy over objectivity.</p>
<p>By that, I meant that a story should be laid out as it falls.  If you have to dig too many layers for the other side of the story, then you run into the danger of <i>creating</i> a side that isn&#8217;t really there.  If, for example, someone was covering a lecture by Jesse Jackson, or Jesse Helms, for that matter, and there were protesters outside, then go ahead and get some quotes.  If they weren&#8217;t, then digging up opposition where there wasn&#8217;t enough to go to the trouble of showing up would actually be skewing the story.</p>
<p>Having said that, I have always felt that market forces were the answer to the question of objectivity.  If there is a bias to one media source, people (being rather less stupid than many would assume) will look to another source that is biased in another direction, and keep doing so until they get enough information to draw a conclusion.  Is it a perfect system for informing the public?  No, but It seems to be about the best we can do.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Noonan</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2481</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Noonan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wpp3/?p=2462#comment-2481</guid>
		<description>We can all take a bit of hypocrisy in life - after all, we pretend that judges are neutral referees of the law, don&#039;t we?  The best of judges approximate this ideal (without ever actually realising it), and the best of our journalists make a sustained effort to report the facts even if they don&#039;t like them - but we are all to a greater or lessor degree biased.

What is annoying about the media and what has, in my view, caused its steady errosion in public respect has been its absurd assertion that its completely unbiased - when NPR leads its report about the long-term effects of 9/11 with a story about how a mosque has suffered a decline in donations, we can easily spot the bias and get enraged that NPR doesn&#039;t just admit its left-wing bias and get on with the job of doing a really excellent job of reporting the news from a left of center perspective.  If they&#039;d drop their pretension to lack of bias, they&#039;d get a lot more respect - and a lot more listeners (and, as a result, they&#039;d have a greater effect on the public debate - and it flabbergasts me that they don&#039;t see this).

You&#039;d think that the major media would catch on about the blogosphere and Fox News and realise that if you want to have the most massively successful news organisation in history you&#039;d desperately seek to staff your organisation with really good writers of all political shadings and let them have at it getting at the news - the friction of the reporters would generate excellence in writing, while the need to not look like a fool would actually mute the biases of the reporters (don&#039;t want to be caught out writing a puff piece on a favored conservative pol who&#039;s just about to be exposed as a crook by one of your liberal colleagues and vice versa, for instance); a properly run major news organisation would have seen both Dean and Kerry politically destroyed by early January, with the field then left to winnowed to those who really have something worthwhile to ad to the debate.

Its a shame, in a lot of ways, because it means that independents (ie, bloggers) have to pick up the slack - I&#039;ll bet dollars to donuts that most people who hang about the web get more and more variety in their news than people who just watch TV news and/or read the morning paper.  Hopefully some media types will start to figure this out (Fox is almost there to figuring it out).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can all take a bit of hypocrisy in life &#8211; after all, we pretend that judges are neutral referees of the law, don&#8217;t we?  The best of judges approximate this ideal (without ever actually realising it), and the best of our journalists make a sustained effort to report the facts even if they don&#8217;t like them &#8211; but we are all to a greater or lessor degree biased.</p>
<p>What is annoying about the media and what has, in my view, caused its steady errosion in public respect has been its absurd assertion that its completely unbiased &#8211; when NPR leads its report about the long-term effects of 9/11 with a story about how a mosque has suffered a decline in donations, we can easily spot the bias and get enraged that NPR doesn&#8217;t just admit its left-wing bias and get on with the job of doing a really excellent job of reporting the news from a left of center perspective.  If they&#8217;d drop their pretension to lack of bias, they&#8217;d get a lot more respect &#8211; and a lot more listeners (and, as a result, they&#8217;d have a greater effect on the public debate &#8211; and it flabbergasts me that they don&#8217;t see this).</p>
<p>You&#8217;d think that the major media would catch on about the blogosphere and Fox News and realise that if you want to have the most massively successful news organisation in history you&#8217;d desperately seek to staff your organisation with really good writers of all political shadings and let them have at it getting at the news &#8211; the friction of the reporters would generate excellence in writing, while the need to not look like a fool would actually mute the biases of the reporters (don&#8217;t want to be caught out writing a puff piece on a favored conservative pol who&#8217;s just about to be exposed as a crook by one of your liberal colleagues and vice versa, for instance); a properly run major news organisation would have seen both Dean and Kerry politically destroyed by early January, with the field then left to winnowed to those who really have something worthwhile to ad to the debate.</p>
<p>Its a shame, in a lot of ways, because it means that independents (ie, bloggers) have to pick up the slack &#8211; I&#8217;ll bet dollars to donuts that most people who hang about the web get more and more variety in their news than people who just watch TV news and/or read the morning paper.  Hopefully some media types will start to figure this out (Fox is almost there to figuring it out).</p>
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		<title>By: Dean's World</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2486</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean's World</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2004 22:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wpp3/?p=2462#comment-2486</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Objectivity In Reporting&lt;/strong&gt;

&lt;p class=&quot;firstinpost&quot;&gt;I&#039;ve long believed that objectivity in journalism is both impossible and a foolish goal. Honesty and transparency are the real keys to good reporting. If such things interest you, you may enjoy &lt;a href=&quot;http://rhetorica.net/archi...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Objectivity In Reporting</strong></p>
<p class="firstinpost">I&#8217;ve long believed that objectivity in journalism is both impossible and a foolish goal. Honesty and transparency are the real keys to good reporting. If such things interest you, you may enjoy <a href=&#8221;http://rhetorica.net/archi&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dean Esmay</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2480</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Esmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:56:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Oops:

&lt;i&gt;...which stories they consider important and which note...&lt;/i&gt;

Which stores they consider important and which &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt;.

Must. Use. Preview!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oops:</p>
<p><i>&#8230;which stories they consider important and which note&#8230;</i></p>
<p>Which stores they consider important and which <i>not</i>.</p>
<p>Must. Use. Preview!</p>
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		<title>By: Dean Esmay</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2479</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Esmay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2004 17:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wpp3/?p=2462#comment-2479</guid>
		<description>While I think political bias does exist in political reporting and that this is also structural--it is impossible for me to swallow the notion that if 80-90% of Washington correspondents vote one way, this does not affect the language and tone of their overall reporting or which stories they consider important and which note--I would quite agree that it tends to be exaggerated, ranted on excessively, harped on too much. Especially because, in the end, I believe that most people are smarter than they&#039;re given credit for, and are able to apply filters to what they read.

All that said, I think you&#039;re quite on the money with the notion of objectivity. It doesn&#039;t exist in reporting. I have long thought what we should be striving for instead of objectivity is &lt;i&gt;transparency&lt;/i&gt;: you, as a reporter, would want to give as much information about yourself as you can. Who you work for, who your advertisers are, what your basic political biases are, how old are you, where were you born, etc. Basic background info, really, but up front about it.

Just admit it, in other words. And if you have a point of view, try to do your best to be fair, to acknowledge when you may be not being fair.

In other words, common sense that most thoughtful individuals would use when relating any story while trying not to be simply a gossip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think political bias does exist in political reporting and that this is also structural&#8211;it is impossible for me to swallow the notion that if 80-90% of Washington correspondents vote one way, this does not affect the language and tone of their overall reporting or which stories they consider important and which note&#8211;I would quite agree that it tends to be exaggerated, ranted on excessively, harped on too much. Especially because, in the end, I believe that most people are smarter than they&#8217;re given credit for, and are able to apply filters to what they read.</p>
<p>All that said, I think you&#8217;re quite on the money with the notion of objectivity. It doesn&#8217;t exist in reporting. I have long thought what we should be striving for instead of objectivity is <i>transparency</i>: you, as a reporter, would want to give as much information about yourself as you can. Who you work for, who your advertisers are, what your basic political biases are, how old are you, where were you born, etc. Basic background info, really, but up front about it.</p>
<p>Just admit it, in other words. And if you have a point of view, try to do your best to be fair, to acknowledge when you may be not being fair.</p>
<p>In other words, common sense that most thoughtful individuals would use when relating any story while trying not to be simply a gossip.</p>
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		<title>By: Donald E. L. Johnson</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2478</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald E. L. Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 08 Aug 2004 13:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://localhost/wpp3/?p=2462#comment-2478</guid>
		<description>Great little essay and pretty much on target.

As a journalist of 40 years as well as a political and business news junky, I&#039;ve given up on the word &quot;objective.&quot; Since I received my first issue of the Columbia Journalism Review back in 1962, I&#039;ve been reading about journalistic objectivity, and I&#039;ve decided that I&#039;m more concerned about journalistic integrity, accuracy and fairness than objectivity.

By integrity, I mean that in the space and time available, report as much of the story straight as possible and leave your personal views and ego out of it. Put writing a story that readers will appreciate and respect above your personal goals of making page one or pushing your political opinions. Most of your readers are smarter and better informed than you think you are.

By fairness, I mean tell as much about the viewpoints and facts presented by news sources as possible. 

Objectivity implies that a reporter&#039;s view of the world won&#039;t be reflected in a story, regardless. Impossible for all but a special few, and they aren&#039;t always the ones writing and editing the stories.

Back to integrity. The word turns most people off. But it&#039;s critical, especially in opinion writing. In Denver, columnists have written in favor of the illegal downloading of music files, illegal immigration and winking at illegal immigrants seeking scholarships. Nationally, Paul Krugman shows no intellectual integrity, and he has made himself and his paper the laughingstock of most of the economic academics and the business world. But this isn&#039;t surprising, because the Times&#039; editorial page is almost as shrill and unfair as he is, and this has cost it respect credibility.

So, I guess the question is, why is it that some journalists are willling to sacrifice their reputations and credibility with dishonest, unfair reporting and commentary? Are they so secure in their jobs that they don&#039;t care? Are they so dishonest that they don&#039;t know right from wrong.

Have they no supervisors, and why not?

As for the journalists at the Unity meeting, I can only hope that most of them are entertainment writers, real estate section writers, sports writers, obit writers and local crime reporters and editors, not political reporters, editors nor columnists. Their views of the world and our profession obviously are quite different from mine. And that&#039;s ok. It&#039;s good that they show their beliefs and feelings so that consumers who are paying attention know what kind of journalists they are dealing with. 

What&#039;s sad, as you imply, is that the convention&#039;s behavior reflects on all journalists, fair or not. Not to smear with a broad brush, or anything, but it may be a fair reflection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great little essay and pretty much on target.</p>
<p>As a journalist of 40 years as well as a political and business news junky, I&#8217;ve given up on the word &#8220;objective.&#8221; Since I received my first issue of the Columbia Journalism Review back in 1962, I&#8217;ve been reading about journalistic objectivity, and I&#8217;ve decided that I&#8217;m more concerned about journalistic integrity, accuracy and fairness than objectivity.</p>
<p>By integrity, I mean that in the space and time available, report as much of the story straight as possible and leave your personal views and ego out of it. Put writing a story that readers will appreciate and respect above your personal goals of making page one or pushing your political opinions. Most of your readers are smarter and better informed than you think you are.</p>
<p>By fairness, I mean tell as much about the viewpoints and facts presented by news sources as possible. </p>
<p>Objectivity implies that a reporter&#8217;s view of the world won&#8217;t be reflected in a story, regardless. Impossible for all but a special few, and they aren&#8217;t always the ones writing and editing the stories.</p>
<p>Back to integrity. The word turns most people off. But it&#8217;s critical, especially in opinion writing. In Denver, columnists have written in favor of the illegal downloading of music files, illegal immigration and winking at illegal immigrants seeking scholarships. Nationally, Paul Krugman shows no intellectual integrity, and he has made himself and his paper the laughingstock of most of the economic academics and the business world. But this isn&#8217;t surprising, because the Times&#8217; editorial page is almost as shrill and unfair as he is, and this has cost it respect credibility.</p>
<p>So, I guess the question is, why is it that some journalists are willling to sacrifice their reputations and credibility with dishonest, unfair reporting and commentary? Are they so secure in their jobs that they don&#8217;t care? Are they so dishonest that they don&#8217;t know right from wrong.</p>
<p>Have they no supervisors, and why not?</p>
<p>As for the journalists at the Unity meeting, I can only hope that most of them are entertainment writers, real estate section writers, sports writers, obit writers and local crime reporters and editors, not political reporters, editors nor columnists. Their views of the world and our profession obviously are quite different from mine. And that&#8217;s ok. It&#8217;s good that they show their beliefs and feelings so that consumers who are paying attention know what kind of journalists they are dealing with. </p>
<p>What&#8217;s sad, as you imply, is that the convention&#8217;s behavior reflects on all journalists, fair or not. Not to smear with a broad brush, or anything, but it may be a fair reflection.</p>
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		<title>By: Arguing with signposts...</title>
		<link>http://rhetorica.net/archives/2462.html/comment-page-1#comment-2485</link>
		<dc:creator>Arguing with signposts...</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Aug 2004 07:13:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;strong&gt;objectivity at the unity conference?&lt;/strong&gt;

Andrew Cline discusses the reception for Presidential Candidate John Kerry at the Unity Conference. He finds the cheering troubling. I agree. I have worked at newspapers where there were policies about what form of citizen action journalists could part...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>objectivity at the unity conference?</strong></p>
<p>Andrew Cline discusses the reception for Presidential Candidate John Kerry at the Unity Conference. He finds the cheering troubling. I agree. I have worked at newspapers where there were policies about what form of citizen action journalists could part&#8230;</p>
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